my secret to success? office gossip.
š¶ Catch You Catch Me - Card Captor Sakura (Hinata Megumi)ā
The air is getting colder, the Canada Goose jackets are coming out, and I need to go buy a Starbucks holiday cup for the nth time because I just love them. This past week, Shannon of FluentlyFoward invited me to be a guest on her podcast, where I gave my absolutely not legal advice takes on celebrity lawsuits, and she in turn forced me to admit that my childhood crush is still 12-years-old and perpetually 2D. If you have travel coming up for Thanksgiving, make sure to download these extra-long episodes to listen to while driving, on the train, or on the plane! I promise that it's the perfect mix of dishy and thoughtful.
As for what to expect in this newsletter, read on to learn my three tactics for gathering office intelligence--or as some people like to call it, "office gossip." They have served me well over the years, and I hope they will do the same for you--but only for good! I then tackle two reader questions about biglaw--one from a partner wondering when and how to decline informational interviews and one from a new law graduate contemplating the routes to biglaw in the future. Have a fantastic week, and happy Thanksgiving to all that celebrate it!
using gossip for good.
Depending on whom you ask, I am either problematically nosy or delightfully curious. I had an extremely strong sense of self as a child, but that all changed when my mom took me on a 14-hour plane ride halfway around the world. I didn't know what was going on when I stepped foot into the United States for the first time, but I also knew that I didn't know what was going on--a dangerous combination for my four-year-old self. An only child, I was spoiled by my grandparents in China and frequently told by the adults around me that I was smart. But as I listened to the airport chatter that sounded like gibberish around me, I did not feel smart--and thus began my 20-year quest to feel smart (and be recognized as such, although that is a different story altogether).
During the first week of my ~fAnCY~ biglaw internship (not to be confused with my lovely but positively un-fancy Department of Justice internship the summer before), my mom gave me one piece of advice: "Make yourself useful! Maybe pop into a partner's office and ask them if you can go grab them coffee?"
It seemed like absolutely awful advice.
I wasn't sure when or where I had developed this sense that I should, in fact, never offer to do things like pick up coffee or grab dry cleaning for the people with whom I worked, but I instinctively recoiled at my mom's suggestion. While I could envision circumstances in which those actions might be viewed as proactive or thoughtful, I had the distinct sense that those circumstances were, in any event, not the circumstances facing me at the law firm. Women are already disproportionately expected to be responsible for "office housework"--planning parties, ordering food, taking notes in meetings, joining committees that don't directly contribute to career advancement--and I did not want to be left "holding the mop," as Senator Elizabeth Warren calls it.
My solution? Office intelligence gathering or, according to some, office gossip. To be honest, I was surprised by some of the comments to my TikTok about figuring out how to gather intelligence in the workplace (although maybe I should stop being surprised by comments, at this point). Many called it office gossip, thought that my asking the executive assistants out to coffee was coldly utilitarian and transparent, or believed I was advising people to go up to others and ask, verbatim, "What is the office political landscape like?" While there are certainly toxic forms of gossiping (separate from the general misogyny of gossip's connotation), one skill that all good gossips tend to have is the ability to tailor words and actions to fit the situation. Good gossips (and good spies) recognize that a certain level of finesse is necessary to get the information that you want--and that sense of finesse is, in fact, weirdly useful outside the realms of gossip, as well.
Practice makes perfect, but the question of how to "practice" gossiping is daunting. Always start off with the low-hanging fruit--try out different strategies to get a colleague to start talking about their outside-of-work interests (or family or something else relatively innocuous). This list is by no means complete, but I've compiled the following arsenal over the years:
Give a little, get a little. You know how we tend to default to "good" or "fine" when asked about how we are or how our weekend was? Stop that! Use that question as an opportunity to open up a little and in turn indicate to the other person that they can open up a little, too. Don't trauma-dump on the person, but elaborating a little on something that's been bothering you or that you've been thinking of can do wonders to grease the intelligence-sharing relationship. Even something as simple as, "I went to an anime convention over the weekend and got to see VTubers perform in front of real-life crowds, which was interesting because XYZ," gives the other person something to work with and respond to.
Ask about things in their office. I love being in the office at least some of the time (one of the things I miss most right now, as I work from my home desk 100% of the time), and one of the reasons was because it gives me so much fodder for getting to know others. Pictures, deal toys, diplomas--the items that someone has in their office is usually an indication of something about them, so ask about it. "Is that your daughter? How old is she?" is a creepy thing to ask someone out of the blue but completely appropriate when in someone's office and glancing at a photo of their daughter.
Make space for them to vent. A lot of corporate jobs involve being on conference calls and group meetings. Inevitably, clients or opposing counsel or someone will say something egregious or act rudely during those calls/meetings. When that happens, I like to make a comment to my colleague(s) about how "aggressive" or "defensive" so-and-so was being--just an offhand remark, really, to signal to others that it's a safe space if they want to talk about it. Oftentimes, they do want to talk about it. We tend to think work should be rational and emotionless, but that's just not the case for a lot of type A overachievers who tend to attach to their work, and I myself have really been grateful to the people who have allowed me to vent and show frustration after particularly bad calls or meetings (in which I don't get credit for something, get ignored, get blamed, etc.). Carve out that breathing room for others, particularly POC.
Start off with the small things, and eventually, it will feel more natural to ask about the larger things like the office political landscape (although please, for the love of God, do not use that term when talking about it!). And remember--always remember--to use your powers of gossip for good and to help others, not to tear others down.
āļø ask cece
when and how should i decline informational interviews from law students?
Q: I should have this figured out by now but would love to have your thoughts on how to handle cold requests for informational interviews from law students. As a young(ish) female BigLaw partner, I get more of these than I have time to handle. My current approach feels a bit capricious: I will usually give whatever time I can to anyone who identifies as a first-generation law student or BIPOC, or sends a thoughtful note that signals to me I have something specific to offer them. I'm curious whether you have other criteria to consider, and/or any suggestions on how to gracefully decline other requests and not simply ignore them (I'm not high-profile enough to have a FAQ elsewhere to direct them to).
- Anonymous
A: First of all--congratulations on your promotion to partner (whenever that occurred)!! That is an incredible accomplishment, and I am always so overjoyed to see representation at the partnership ranks be more reflective of broader society. But with greater power comes greater responsibility, and I don't think it's at all a "should" for you to have figured out when and how to allocate your precious time. It is extremely hard to figure out how to navigate all of this, and the fact that you even care to think about it says a lot about you--many partners (mostly male, ahem) would ignore all such emails and have no qualms about doing so. So kudos to you for being thoughtful about your role within the legal industry!
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Frankly, I love your current approach, even though you describe it as capricious--I think it tackles the underlying systemic inequalities of law quite well, by focusing on (a) those who likely do not have existing connections to lawyers and who can only gather non-public information through cold emailing and (b) those who have specific things they wish to learn from you that they have been particular about seeking out and likely would be more difficult to learn from a more generic "lawyer" at large (e.g., particular interest in environmental law at biglaw firms versus questions about biglaw more generally). To bolster (a), you could also consider a quick Google of law students who reach out to you and make a point to say "yes" to students from lower-ranked law schools who might not have as many biglaw resources as students at higher-ranked schools have. (Sometimes, students don't even know that they should signal to you that they have limited resources, information-wise.) This helps combat the numerous attorneys whose rule of responding to cold outreach is to only meet with law students from their alma mater, thereby perpetuating the existing inequalities in the profession. All in all, I find your criteria quite fair and sensible.
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With respect to how to gracefully decline requests, have you thought about creating an email FAQ that you can send back in response? If you're receiving more requests than you can handle, then I think you're already high-profile enough to have FAQs that you can send back to people. It would be even better, I think, to have your assistant respond to the declines, including the FAQs at the bottom or in attachment--that way, it buffers you against some of the inevitable vitriol that comes with responding to decline. (Just be sure to run this by your assistant first, though, and explain why you're asking them to do this non-work work--making the law more accessible, wanting to give back, etc.--so that they are on board, as well.) You're truly a gem for making yourself available in this way--good luck, and remember to protect time for yourself!
is it difficult to enter biglaw without having started in biglaw?
Q: Hi Cece! I love your videos! I have a question regarding entering big law as a recent law grad. Iām currently not working at a big law firm but I wanted to find out how difficult it is to enter the area without having worked as a first year associate at one of the big firms? Thank you so much!
- Anonymous
A: Entering biglaw without having started in biglaw can be tricky and largely dependent on the market. During the hiring craze of 2021, biglaw firms became less picky about where lateral associates came from, and it was an excellent opportunity for midsize associates and boutique associates to lateral to biglaw firms (although sometimes with a few step backs in seniority). During market downturns, however, it can be next to impossible to break into biglaw when not already in biglaw, as hiring slows down and laid-off biglaw associates apply to other biglaw firms.
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Another path that you might consider is working in government or in-house and then applying to biglaw from there. Biglaw firms value government experience and in-house experience, as such experience often gives associates a sense of what the "other side" is looking for--like time spent doing opposition research. Biglaw firms often work with in-house lawyers, making the in-house perspective valuable, or government attorneys in investigations or enforcement, making government contacts valuable. Going in-house or into government can, therefore, make your resume more appealing to a biglaw firm than with firm experience alone. And don't forget about networking--while all of the foregoing are definitely ways into biglaw, nothing really beats charming a biglaw partner somewhere and having that immediate "in" with the firm. Best of luck!